September 2008 Archives

Date: 29. Sep 2008, 15:17

Alasdair McFadyen: the first question I would like to ask is do you think that Sectarianism is a relevant issue today or do you think it is a thing of the past?

James: absolutely relevant issue today unfortunately. I think it is still, it is starting to change but it is going to be a long slow process, it is going to take a few generations.

Colin: I think it certainly is relevant. I think that all the new stories have certainly made it relevant again but I think it never really lost a great deal of relevance. However I do think for a while it had moved almost to the background. It wasn't as evident as it had been. And I think it has since come back to through to the fore. I think obviously after, the last time I think that it was really bad was that particularly that old firm game where Hugh Dallas ended up getting hit by a coin, I think it had got to a really excessive point and it started to bring itself back, and unfortunately it seems to become. the new mention of the famine song, well I think that its shifting back towards the front again, I certainly don't think it has gone anywhere, you know.

Alasdair: what kind of forms of sectarianism do you think take place in Glasgow?

James: that brings up a few issues about, you know, "you try and get a job with Glasgow city council if you're a proddy?" And that used to be apparently the case and the opposite side with the Catholic side and the shipyards, for a long time they couldn't get jobs, they found it very difficult to get jobs in the shipyards because they were catholic, so there is employment and Sectarianism, there is social sectarianism, I suppose. The whole fact there are separate schools, people think. I think people look at it and think it is a bad thing. I don't think there is anything wrong with people having a separate identity, it's the fact that, em, how do you fit all these identities together? Everyone has their own identity and we are all human beings you know? Again there is a great line from your character, you know, saying your jigsaw line? (Points to Colin).

Colin: well yeah I suppose Tim mentions that he wants to be part of the jigsaw that makes up Scotland, as suppose to being anything else, but I do think that James made a valid point about the, em, separate schools. Particularly catholic schools and the, kinda, well I don't want to say Protestant schools.

Alasdair: non-denominational schools?

Colin: yeah non-denominational schools, that's what I meant to mean <laughs>. And I think that can certainly be an evident thing of Sectarianism, as well as the Rangers and Celtic, there is all sorts of things. Also my character mentions "we are not the only Sectarianism that Scotland has got and I think it is. We have even noticed to the extent with regards to within the arts at times, some people maybe don't think that this play is artistic enough to be on in certain theatres, and certain people think that it is a little bit beneath them. Possibly.?

I mean Sectarianism is under all sorts of things, I mean there are various different aspects of it but with regards to the play, the major one that you see is the Rangers and Celtic aspect. It is certainly, it takes many forms in Scotland I would say.

James: I think you could also say Sectarianism of culture, simple things, you know there is high culture and low culture and all that sort of stuff. There are all kinds of different sectarianism apart from the obvious ones.

Colin: it is the same with working class and middle class Sectarianism is all over the place literally.

Alasdair: But the main one in Scotland is the football?

Colin: certainly is, aye.

Alasdair: why, in you opinion, do you think Sectarianism is present in Glasgow today?

Colin: I think that even society today has got a very blame orientated culture today and I think that helps cause it. I think when things are going wrong, and I think that, football grounds were originally built in poorer areas generally. Land was cheaper to build in there and people would grow and live near the stadiums, Parkhead, Ibrox and Govan, busy areas where often the work is hard and the living is not so easy and there is often not a lot of money about. And I think that, sometimes, with regards to that maybe people sometimes people think that someone is out to get them and they look after themselves and alienate people, and I think that throughout the world there is this blame culture and I think that one is one of the things that causes the rise of, kind of, sects as such.

James: I mean if you want to take it from the historical point of view you know, I am sure you know, about the influx of Catholics to the west of Scotland so that's part of it and why it is so prevalent in the west of Scotland. Em, people always have, I mean a lot of the time people have that protection as to 'what is going to happen to us?' and 'what is going to happen to our jobs?' and it happened then and it is happening again now, you know economic immigrants from Poland or whatever over taking our jobs but sometimes some of the individuals who are saying this are the very people who not even bothering to find a job or don't have the confidence to find a job and are saying this and there is not even a job they can go for but they are saying that because, as Colin was saying, they are looking for someone else to be responsible. Hitler and the Jews you know? <laughs> so I mean it is that whole 'it's their fault, it's their fault' and not looking at themselves.

Alasdair: do you think maybe, a kind of fear of the unknown idea?

Colin: I think originally it was, particularly, with the, with the kind of Jacabite uprising and the battle of the bouine and things like that. And the potato famine and people coming over. I think it was, it was these people coming over from another country and we don't know these people, they don't speak our language and they are from a different place so I think initially it was a fear of the unknown. It is not really unknown now in Scotland but perhaps but people coming over now, people like the Polish, are almost living that kind of thing that happened back then. I think with the Catholic Protestant thing in Scotland it maybe started out as a fear of the unknown and it has just become stagnant over time and become less of a fear and more of a hatred as such. I certainly think people are . you always hear about nature or nurture, it is certainly not nature here, it is certainly nurture here. People that believe, are brought up to believe this to an extent, they see it from all their family members, in society and they here it in the street in stuff.

James: you see babies with, I'm laughing, you see babies with no surrender bibs and stuff like that and IRA bibs and you think it's sad, it's sad. If this way can be learned then the opposite way can be learned as well you know?

Alasdair: you mentioned earlier about the lines in the play about the Catholics working with the council and stuff like that. What sort of Discrimination occurs with Sectarianism, along those lines?

James: apart from economically. it think just socially, people divide along lines.

Colin: I have certainly heard of teachers struggling to get jobs in certain schools due to their religious background, it can often be a thing. The thing about the council sounds. it was. but now-a-days it is illegal to discriminate and all that kind of stuff and I am pretty certain that there is still some kind of discrimination going on, behind closed doors. It is not quite the same as 'Catholics need not apply' and stuff that you used to get outside the shipyards but I think that certain people from both sides of the divide you sometimes feel think that there is no point in me applying or mentioning to people about that, whether it is true or not, I think there is always a supposed discrimination maybe.

James: well I would say that is true, in my limited experience of jobs. In a lot of jobs it is about who you know, especially if you have a relative in the firm, I don't know whether that has to do with catholic or prodestants, sometimes maybe but sometimes it is just to do with you know someone in that firm and they give you a wee bit of preference in that interview or whatever. So. there are lots of ingredients to sectarianism as well as just purely Protestant and Catholic and I think it's.

Alasdair: do you think is any circumstances where Sectarianism or discrimination would be acceptable?

<pauses and thinks>

Colin: with regards to this play I don't think there is necessarily think there is a major problem with people having, giving abuse to each other at a football match. Or necessarily calling somebody such and such or calling somebody something else within the realms of a football match. Where I think this has become excessive is well, obvious as we mentioned if people aren't getting jobs because of this or that but where it is getting far too far is when people are getting stabbed in the streets and stuff.

Now I don't buy into sectarianism at all with this stuff. I was never brought up in it. My family are actually brought up in carluke and stuff and my family aren't old firm supporters. But obviously growing up in a school in the west of Scotland you know of the situation, there is no way you can't. but I wouldn't say that there is any place for discrimination or Sectarianism really. A bit of good natured banter between friends is one thing but I think that is you take it out of anywhere else. If you did that in a public place you would run the risk of offending somebody or eh. provoking them basically.

James: again I think there are more humors ways of dealing with things than violence. Well obviously there are better ways to deal with things than violence. I think you need to diffuse the situation sometimes when you know, you have known each other, a wee bit of banter there can evolve. If we didn't have a sense of humor about it then there would be more violence.

Colin: well I think that's what is most important about the play. Our play uses humor to explore these issues. It is not necessarily set out to change the world. However, it does allow Rangers and Celtic fans to be in the same room. Maybe they are not discussing these issues but the actors in the same room are and for Billy and Tim to call each other fienians or orange bastards is ok on the stage because it is a stage play where as if people in the audience started to do that there would be a fight. So I think that utilizing it through this play, the two actors, protagonists, are doing both sides of the argument and arguing themselves hoarse eventually and realizing that they are both talking. that they are very similar and they have a lot of things in common and the do sort of come to an agreement and I think that the audience calms down at that point and that they think I don't think there is really anything else left to say and eh and because they are laughing that much it does defuse the whole situation and they go out laughing and they are still calling each other names and stuff but they are all laughing and that's alright.

I think that there is a place for humor and obviously possibly the stage on the comedy circuit is the place where Sectarianism or discrimination possibly semi-acceptable in that context but it is a very jaggy issue, you know.

Alasdair: do you think that when one set of jokes is made about one team, half that crowd cheer?

Colin: we wondered about that at first. I think that yeah, the very early part where both teams, I mean characters, I keep saying teams. Because I se it all as a big metaphor. The two characters Billy and Tim meet and they start fighting at first. And it is very very venomous and it is very barbed arguments and insults and I think at the start it is very one side laughing at one side but then there is the odd joke and two start laughing but I think by the end of it everybody are laughing at what Tim says, as are the Celtic fans vice versa. I do think at the end of it, I mean, I have had people congratulate me after the show from both sides and they have loved it.

I do think there is. sorry.

James: No, no you're fine. I was about to say people do ask you 'are you a Celtic fan?'

Colin: aye I get a lot of beef about that as well. And yeah I know what you mean.

James: I mean it shouldn't matter. Did you feel it yourself? I know you are meant to be interviewing us but did you feel it?

Alasdair: yes. I felt in the first half it was always kind of half on the other but by the end it was most people were laughing at it all. It was definitely a lot louder in the second half.

Colin: we certainly find that because in the second half it is a funnier half. It is not as venomous. The two boys have come to a sort of agreement. Harry's story has been developed and you do realize at this point that there are more important things at this point. But that quote that bill shankly said, football isn't life, it is far more important and that is.

James: a bit of tongue in cheek <laughs>

Colin: it is a great quote and I do think that Billy and Tim have realized by the second half that, they are starting to realize that it could be worse is suppose and maybe this guy over here isn't that bad. Obviously there are moments when it veers back into the anger, especially the bit with the masons and Tim starts to get particularly paranoid again but I do think that they do start to find a bit of common ground and the do start to work well together. The bit about saving the nation with bigotry and stuff works quite well and the two of them start, and they are like best pals for that moment and I think with the play, I mean you never know, they probably wont be best pals for the rest of their life but for that moment they are, and that certainly helps.

James: I think that taking into context, I know you can describe a football stadium as theatre in someway as well but I don't know whether taking it out of the football stadium and football fans who would never come and see a play, some of them, and the theatre makes it feel less, more inhibited at first but then I think you get to the second half and they have had a drink and I think they are a bit more relaxed and on Saturday night we heard them shout things. It wasn't anything particularly nasty but we heard them shouting for their team but there was no 'AW SHUT UP' which was good and the fact that they felt relaxed enough to say something and then some responds from the other side but it was fine. I didn't feel an antagonistic side.

Colin: yeah I think that more than anything the, it wasn't abuse but the banter wasn't aimed at anybody. It wasn't aimed at the crowd as in a football match. They are not sitting between the segregation screaming at one another. If they have anything to shout like 'mon the gers' or 'mon the hoops' then they shouted it at us.

And it wasn't in a bad way. I mean if someone shouted mon the hoops' the then someone else would shout 'mon the gers', there wasn't any 'oh shut up you! Im gonna batter you' or anything like that. They were just having a laugh. And that is not is not a theatre audience, we have not been having a theatre audience, you know traditional theatre audiences. I mean there are those people coming to see it but on the whole I would say that this is a new kind of theatre audience coming to the play and is maybe one that doesn't necessarily know how they are expected to behave in a theatre but that is a great thing as well because we wont these people to see things and go to the theatre and have the good time that these people are having.

I wouldn't say that these are life changing experiences but I would say that they are having experiences that are.well one lady left a quote on the website saying that it had opened a new door for her as she had never been to theatre before but now she would consider going to the theatre. I mean whether she would consider going to see anything else you never know but if she saw something on a similar vein to this then she would consider going to see it.

Alasdair: obviously the play is some sort of action against sectarianism. Do you feel that any other action against sectarianism needs to be taken?

James: oh aye.I think this is a wee seed, you know dropping wee seeds. But you have to make sure that you keep dropping wee seeds. You got to keep making wee deposits to keep moving things forward. You have got to keep taking action a lot could be done. I mean Colin is taking part in a school workshop

Colin: yeah well, no that's ok, I mean that is not with the theatre group obviously, so.that is a possibility but what I think would be the best thing is that there is money to be spent and I think that it needs to be spent on this. These politicians are all coming out saying 'that they want to target it' and I think that they need to put their money where their mouth is. I think that this play, this one in particular, would be ideal in schools, but unfortunately we can't take it into schools until there is money there to afford things. Because schools can't necessarily afford to pay it so the fact is that we are all actors, we need the money to just set aside our time to go out and rehearse the show first of all. There is all the, you know, touring, if you are touring up north or whatever and when you are touring you need to stay overnight you know, in Aberdeen and Inverness, Elgin and places like that and if you are going to the Western Iles, I have done shows up there, I mean that all costs money, with ferries and such. I think the case like that.

The amount of money to put a show on the road, I mean it is a massive amount of money, petrol, van hire or having a van and the running costs and all that. .there is money to be spent and I am sure the government is happy enough to spend it if they are getting results. I think, with regards to this theatre, the best thing that could happen would be to see about getting this play on in schools and secondary schools around the country. I think we have done it for a couple of schools and saw positive feedback and I think that if the government did back initiatives, and they are doing that, I mean there is workshops been done in primary schools, I know that Milton theatre are doing workshops as james was mentioning and obviously there is nil by mouth and Sense over Sectarianism and kick it out and all sorts of different things that are doing things and there is certainly not one company that is going to be able to wipe out Sectarianism. And it is not going to be one of those initiatives, even with this play, it is not one of those things that will disappear over night, over time it will disappear but it is a generational thing. Some people, 50's, 60's, 70's they cant change now, they are not going to change, they don't want to change. However the younger generation and our generation, my wee brother, is 12, and it is not as much of an issue for him and I think as you go on and on it will become less of an issue but these initiatives need to continue and they can make a difference

James: I was going to say we had a discussion in Cumbernauld after the show one night and that was really good and there was an older guy there and he was basically saying that, the playwright said this too, it is good that we are even talking about it now openly because in the 50's and 60's and 70's that didn't happen and it wouldn't happen. It would just be accepted as that is the way it is, just get on with it. 'they are there' and 'they are them' and 'we are us' and whatever between shall be. People are starting to talk now, you know, aye, I think as A(2) says it is going to take time to change and it starts with the parents, teachers and friends and any positive example of people facing up to it, dealing with it, in a positive way I think is a great thing, regardless of whether it is theatre, schools or whatever. I mean it just takes time

Alasdair: Does Glasgow have its own unique version of the problem?

James: as suppose to.?

Alasdair: as suppose to somewhere else in Britain or the World? Just a sort of unique version of it in Glasgow to other places, for the likes of, for instance, Belfast.

Colin: well I think Glasgow and Belfast are very similar, in aspects, you know. Obviously Belfast was a warzone essentially, you know, that is where the difference lies. However Glasgow, with regards to Sectarianism in the world, there are all sorts of different types I mean you here about the Sonnies and the Shiites', I mean we mention about the Croats and the Serbs and things like that. Sectarianism in this kind of a religious war, with regards to all these things, you hear about the likes of the Jihads and you think back to the crusades, back in the middle ages, it is still an old problem. it is unique to an extent in Scotland because, with regards to Rangers and Celtic, they have found almost a legitimate entity to, how would you put it?

James: well I see it as tribes, everybody has to belong to something at some point and when you find something that you want to belong to. I mean for some people it is Celtic and Rangers, for some People it is gangs...it is a unique problem. There is a unique twist on it in West of Scotland

Colin: well there is football violence all over the world, the ultras in particular. And in Italy and obviously Poland and Russia now have particularly strong tribe if you think about it and then obviously South America have big problems, Turkey, I mean all over the world. I don't think there are many of them that are rooted in Religion Such as Rangers and Celtic. As James mentions Tribes, the other teams are tribal and it is colors, the battle colors everywhere, and they go in and all that kind of stuff. With regards to Rangers and Celtic, so I think it is unique to an extent. Em the situation maybe isn't unique but I think some of the things that go with it are slightly unique.

Alasdair: do you think Rangers and Celtic have formed a living body that has jumped into and keeps it going to an extent.

James: I think you could take the view that although Rangers and Celtic, people that run it, know that, it is a bad thing, in terms of drunken violence but maybe there is part of them that knows that we definitely cant take it away, as if we diffuse the situation we will lose some of our financial aid, monetary support.

Colin: as you mention, that is a view, that is obviously possible, I think it is quite cynical, but possible. I think that what I was trying to say earlier about legitimate, because Rangers and Celtic are big institutions and they are in the legitimate world of football they have got something to be, the bigots and the bigotry have got something to tie itself too. And it is not something that Rangers and Celtic these days want anything to do with. They are a brand , they are a company and they want to sell, they want to sell tickets to make money, they want to be a football team. They don't want to have any bad feedback or publicity on their side so obviously it is something that they have tried to distance themselves from but I do think that for years and years the bigots from both sides joined to these teams and did build up support and the songs were sung and there were more people singing them at football matches and I think they did make it bigger back in the day and when Mo Johnstone happened and he moved to Rangers, with Graeme Souness and for years Rangers hadn't signed a Catholic.

James: that was a great barrier that fell. That was a massive barrier that fell, with Rangers when Mo Johnstone signed.

Colin: when he did sign, then Negri and then it all happened, now of course you have Kenny Millar and Stephen Pressley played on both sides. Kenny Millar has done it a couple of times, em, who else was there?

James: the opposing side of that coin is, proposing the cynical argument, is that if it is purely about money and getting as many customers and supporters in as possible then they want to expand beyond this local brand, make themselves a global brand, like Manchester United so what you could say is that they won't be interested in any negative thing and they do want to stamp it out , do want to get rid of bigotry. It is just two points, I am sure there are lots more viewpoints as well.

Alasdair: just the final question now. Do you think there are any points that I haven't covered with these questions that should be mentioned?

James: I can't think of anything off hand.
Colin: I think it is a good point about do Celtic and Rangers have something to answer? Have they not? Are they to blame? Are they not? Is there blame? I mentioned the blame culture earlier on, is there someone to blame? Is it not an issue a blame?

NLP Theatre Company's interactive anti-sectarian drama workshops focus on raising awareness of the issues surrounding sectarianism within Scottish society.

The workshops follow a performance of Des Dillon's anti-sectarian play "Singin` I`m No a Billy He`s a Tim" and explore opinions and perspectives of bigotry, sectarianism and ethnic identity in Scotland.

Workshop leaders engage participants in discussions about the play, looking at the characters (Harry, Billy &,Tim), and considering how Billy & Tim have picked up their personal attitudes, views and beliefs through family and society. 

The participants get the chance to play Billy & Tim and perform on stage with profesional actors. 

Our drama workshops draw out personal attitudes, views and experiences while encouraging participants to challenge sectarianism in their own lives and in wider society.

Our workshops are available to schools, youth groups and organisations.

For more information on our anti-sectarian workshops or to book a performance and workshop contact Scott Kyle

Scott Kyle
Artistic Director
NLP Theatre Company
33 Victoria Street
Rutherglen
Glasgow
G73 1DU